Understanding the Dilemma
Just to state out front, the majority of women do not know what really works for them. Women learn about their own sexuality and what works during their sexual journey – which is why when surveyed, more mature women report having better sex lives than younger, and also report that the sex is better post-40 then it was pre-40. This includes stronger orgasms and with more frequency.
The reason is conditioning. Sadly, on the top of most women’s list is not enjoyable sex for themselves, but that they are pleasing the man that they are with. At her core, a woman wants to be valued. She wants to be desired. Sex is not so much a biological imperative – as it is for men. It is a letting of the guard down and allowing someone she likes to share in a sexual experience with her. Many guys who have a friend with benefits think that she just wants sex like him. What they don’t know is it is not as casual as it seems. The vast majority of the time, she is hoping he’ll come around and like her back, and value her enough to be committed to her. Even open relationships have commitment, and the women who have multiple partners still want what she considers her main partner. You can see the difference in sexuality in porn habits, and the fact the prostitution is almost exclusively for men.
Women do not explore what they like, but instead want to know what he likes. In American culture, sexuality has long been male dominated. For men to have sex was considered a crowning achievement, and for women – something to be embarrassed about. The sexuality that embedded American culture was primarily male-written. What we get is not what women want, but conditioning that women should want it that way because men want it.
Big Penis Myth
Do women want sex? Absolutely. Do they want a guy’s penis? Yes! Do they want you just for your penis? NO!
The big penis myth needs to really come to a stop. The big penis myth is not that women don’t enjoy a large penis, it’s that a large penis means your performance will be great. When women were polled, rarely is the biggest penis the best lover she reported. For some men with large penises, they feel their dick size means that they just put it in and it will hurt a little, but then the women will cum like crazy. If a woman is cumming like crazy, there is a good chance she knows what she likes and responds well to stimulation. Many women who orgasm frequently do so regardless of the man’s penis (as long as it is not too big or too small). If a guy has a large penis and has been sexually promiscuous, he will find that women respond differently to him. It’s not true that every girl he touches with his magic dong goes crazy.
The reason why the big dick myth keeps around is not just male ego and virility. It is because, well, some women like big dicks – especially thick ones. For them, intercourse feels good, and a reason for that is the displacement in the vagina and pressure on the nerve endings. However, this typically is not what makes even those women orgasm. The reason why those women like thick penises is because of the most wonderful thing a woman can explore – her clitoris. The clitoris is not just a little nub at the top of her vulva. It actually has a body – which has roots that flank the vaginal opening on both sides. So when you are stretching her open, you are putting more pressure on her clitoris. Also, when you are larger, there is a tendency to have more pull on the vagina, and that tugging helps stimulate the clitoris. In fact, many in my field think this is what women report at the G-spot (part of clitoral body before the roots split off).
If some women like big dicks, does that mean the sex is better?
Not exactly. Here are a few reasons why a big dick does not mean better sex:
- The vast majority of women will not orgasm from a thick dick alone. While the clitoral body is flanking both sides of the vagina, it is not nearly as sensitive as the glans (the part of the clitoris you can see at top of the vulva).
- A thicker penis will touch and put greater friction on more areas, but even a thinner penis with positioning and leaning can provide more pressure on her most sensitive area
- For many people, providing stimulation while having intercourse is better than any intercourse by itself (e.g. a man just thrusting his thick penis in her vagina over and over may not be as pleasurable as an average penis thrusting while also kissing her or sucking her breast).
Women don’t want a big dick, they want a good dick. It’s up to them to decide that.
Challenge Everything 
Your claim “The vast majority of women will not orgasm from a thick dick alone.”. This is wrong. I have studied every single large sample study on orgasm by penetration.
That most women can’t orgasm with penetration is a myth spread all over the internet, including by sex therapists like you. See the survey [1] by IFOP (Institut français d’opinion publique; a professional polling and market research firm [2]). In this survey, 68% of the 8000 women orgasm with penetration at least “somewhat easily” without stroking the clitoris at the same time. They have separate questions for with or without clitoral stroking, so the question can not be misunderstood (as opposed to their question on anal, which may thus include clitoral stimulation). IFOP claims the survey is scientific.
They have nationally representative samples for each country, and numbers of how many have ever masturbated (79%), received oral etc agrees quite well with other studies [3], suggesting this is not some weird hypersexual sample.
I am not saying most women reach orgasm most of the time, likely because many men orgasm before, and because of other factors like foreplay, clitoral stimulation during foreplay etc.
I have seen how common the misrepresentations are by “sex experts” and others, to reduce how many orgasm with penetration [3].
This link [3] contains all large sample studies on orgasm with penetration.
[1] https://sv.cam4.com/insights/year-of-the-female-orgasm. See the pdfs at the bottom of the site, page 40.
[2] https://www.ifop.com/en/who-we-are-2/
[3] https://www.docdroid.net/T8WtxOO/study-color-pdf
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Thank you for your reply. However not sure how the IFOP polls contradicts me. I am always willing to concede if I am wrong, but nowhere does that study claim a thicker dick causes more women to orgasm (unless I missed it).
To note, I am not a sex therapist, but my wife is – who is a leading researcher and author. Keep in mind, the clitoris is not just a nub on the top of the vulva. It has a body that flanks both sides of the vaginal opening. Also, during intercourse, the clitoral glans are being stimulated with rubbing and tugging. I am an OB/GYN, and I can tell you there is a lot of confusion (even amongst women) on the arousal response and what is being stimulated. So it’s a little naive for someone to say it was clitoral, just because they didn’t manually stimulate the clitoris.
Your 3rd citation is from a predatory journal, and it is known to print garbage (like that article).[1] Just even clicking on the link gave me phishing pop-ups. You won’t find any credible journal printing that, because it cannot be substantiated.
[1] https://beallslist.net
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This is how the IFOP polls contradict you: you claim the VAST MAJORITY of women do not reach orgasm by penetration. If you say this is due to the internal clitoral body, then they orgasm by penetration and it still contradicts you. I was not talking about a thicker dick per se, I was just remarking on your claim that most women don’t orgasm by penetration (which is widely claimed by sex therapists, maybe your wife too).
My third citation is not on your beallslist, since it is not a predatory journal, for it is no journal! It is my own pdf shared via DocDroid. It has never given me any popups, even with AdBlock disabled.
The Ifop question should also exclude stroking the clitoris against the partner (not just manual stimulation), since it does not say the stroking has to be by hand. Though it does not exclude what I think you mean by “tugging”.
Most circumcised women orgasm with intercourse in all 3 studies I found (Sec 2.5 in the DocDroid link for refs, including the 827 sample size study). This suggests tugging on the clitoral glans plays a smaller role.
I also wanna state how low I value expertise from “sex experts”. That is what my Introduction (and Discussion) section is about. I have more than 10 examples there of “sex experts” misrepresenting studies (including in the peer reviewed litterature) to give a lower number for orgasm by penetration. I can make that list longer (it was excluded due to the doc getting too long).
That sex research and education has had an anti penetration/vagina bias is evident to me. I find that “sex experts” tend to have a lower view of penetration compared to normal women. This is echoed by a sex researcher:
“When I have informally discussed these research findings with people who are not sex therapists, sex educators, social scientists, or sundry ‘‘activists’’, by far the most frequent response I encounter is a calm ‘‘everybody knows that’’. When I inform them that many of the professionals in the field claim to believe the opposite, they often display a wry facial expression.
How did many professionals come to believe (or at least propagate the belief in) the counterfactual?” [1]
I have no proof against the hypothesis that these orgasms are heavily influenced by the internal clitoris. But there is no proof that these structures feel sexual pleasure and the hypothesis has some challenges (refs omitted due to space).
[1] Stuart Brody Professor of Psychology PhD (2006) Penile – vaginal intercourse is better: evidence trumps ideology, Sexual and Relationship Therapy, 21:4, 393-403. https://doi.org/10.1080/14681990600891427
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It doesn’t contradict me. You have a straw man argument. I claimed they do not come from big dicks, alone – meaning the size isn’t the indicator. You misquoted me in your 2nd reply to make a point.
Sorry about claiming your doc was predatory, but the site did phishing pop ups.
I don’t subscribe to the conspiracy that sex researchers are hiding data or ignorant on it. I will give your section a read, but if so, that is intellectually and scientifically dishonest. The scientific community is pretty good about excluding those people. Are you claiming they are misreporting data? How do you know they are wrong if that is what the report states? Or do you mean they make false claims about the research?
So, this is bullshit?:
“In June 2015, 1,055 women ages 18 to 94 from the nationally representative GfK KnowledgePanel® completed a confidential, Internet-based survey. While 18.4% of women reported that intercourse alone was sufficient for orgasm, 36.6% reported clitoral stimulation was necessary for orgasm during intercourse, and an additional 36% indicated that, while clitoral stimulation was not needed, their orgasms feel better if their clitoris is stimulated during intercourse.”
Source: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0092623X.2017.1346530
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Okay I misinterpreted your sentence on big dicks alone, given the sentence afterwards. I thought you meant the big dick is not enough to stimulate the clitoral body enough for most women to orgasm.
I said nothing about any conspiratories. I meant bias, prejudice and bad quality research. Compare what Brody the sex researcher said [1], reasons for denying vaginal orgasm etc “How did many professionals come to believe (or at least propagate the belief in) the counterfactual? Perhaps in some cases it was unquestioning acceptance of the received lore. Perhaps in some cases it was superficially soothing to those with their own sexual and psychological problems. But in other cases, it was a wilful imposition of a politically and psychologically driven prejudice upon the general population, …”.
I claim I keep stumbling upon researchers misrepresenting (whether through bias, mistakes or whatever) the study they cite, giving too low numbers, as shown in my Introduction. Here is another example [2]:
“During sexual intercourse without direct clitoral stimulation, only about one-third of all females experience an orgasm (Prause et al., 2016).”
What was actually in Prause et al [3, Table 1] was that 33% had their “Primary cause of most recent orgasm” from penetration. So Prause did not show that “only about one-third of all females experience an orgasm”. If I find such errors seldom I would say nothing, but it is too common, making me not trust “sex experts” cited figures on penetration orgasm.
Another study [4] says “Most women report the inability to achieve orgasm with vaginal intercourse and require direct clitoral stimulation [7,8].” But no such data can be found in their ref 8, and they don’t give page number for ref 7, which is a whole book.
Sex researcher Dr. Mintz have on her website for her book, and she has endorsements there from scientific journals etc, erroneously says: “Mainstream media, movies, and porn have taught us that sex = penis + vagina, and everything else is just secondary. The problem is, WOMEN DON’T ORGASM THIS WAY. We’ve separated our most reliable route to orgasm—clitoral stimulation—from how we feel we should orgasm—penetration.” [5] (emph. added)
I don’t understand what you are even trying to say by “this is bullshit?” (it is not). The Herbenick study shows that 18+36=54% “are best described” as reaching orgasm without clitoral stimulation, where some women who chose that they need clitoral stimulation may refer to clitoral stimulation during foreplay (see the question, though the researchers failed to see this distinction themselves, which is revealed in their sentence “adding clitoral stimulation during penetration was either necessary…”, but this is a minor error). This study, if we believe the women know their bodies well enough, contradicts your earlier statement that “because it cannot be substantiated.” [referring to my overall conclusion of my Document I presume.]
[1] Stuart Brody Professor of Psychology PhD (2006) Penile – vaginal intercourse is better: evidence trumps ideology, Sexual and Relationship Therapy, 21:4, 393-403. https://doi.org/10.1080/14681990600891427
[2] Hoy, M., van Stein, K., Strauss, B. et al. The Influence of Types of Stimulation and Attitudes to Clitoral Self-stimulation on Female Sexual and Orgasm Satisfaction: a Cross-sectional Study. Sex Res Soc Policy (2021). https://doi.org/10.1007/s13178-021-00618-2
[3] Prause et al. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jsxm.2016.08.014
[4] Kammerer-Doak D et al. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ogc.2008.03.006
[5] Becoming Cliterate | LAURIE MINTZ (drlauriemintz.com)
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You are obviously very well read on this subject and more informed that I am. I would need to take time to look into your sources, but appreciate your response and educating me.
To make a point, your original comment on my post is a straw man argument. It’s refuting something I never claimed.
The articles you cite make reference to the clitoris but they are actually referring to the clitoral glans. No where do I state that manual clitoral stimulation is required to orgasm. There is the clitoral body and for these women (or even researchers) to say they are not getting clitoral stimulation is most likely not correct. The clitoral roots flank both sides of the vagina and are being stimulated with intercourse. So it’s a bit of misnomer for anyone to claim no clitoral stimulation.
BTW, I asked my wife and she said the clitoral glans for the majority of women is WAY more sensitive than the clitoral body. She also believes the stem of the clitoris (main base, just before the roots split off) is what many women refer to as the G-spot. So it is all clitoral, but in popular culture and because of past ignorance, clitoral meant clitoral glans. The clitoral glans are the easiest way to orgasm. She told me there is a percentage of women who sadly have a very difficult time orgasming, and when they do, the clitoral glans have to be stimulated – at least so far.
Thank you for reading and I appreciate your repsonse. If I am in error anywhere, happy to correct.
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Correction of ref [5] above. This is the link I meant: https://www.drlauriemintz.com/becoming-cliterate
Correction of sentence “where some women who chose that they need clitoral stimulation” to “where some or many women who chose that they need clitoral stimulation probably referred to clitoral stimulation during foreplay”
Your last reply makes sense and it seems like I agree with you in broad strokes. This whole thing started by me misinterpreting your sentence and my intended claim was merely that most women do orgasm by penetration without added (and most likely without any) simultaneous stimulation of the clitoral glans.
Whether penetration orgasms are influenced by the internal clitoral body I do not know. Though I do not have the same confidence in the internal clitoris feeling pleasure; I treat it as a hypothesis.
“Wallen and Lloyd (2011) SPECULATED that ‘the clitoral bulbs and bodies as well as the shaft and glans’ may well be erotically responsive. Puppo (2011), however, opined that the ‘roots of the clitoris ….. do not have sensory receptors or erogenous sensitivity during vaginal intercourse’ although he could offer no empirical evidence or validation for this statement. No specific empirical test has yet been devised to establish, without question, the erotic function of all the clitoral structures.” [1] (emph. added)
I also note that for the 720 women in Bronsalaer et al (Discussion in Doc for ref), the women rated most pleasure (presumably from manual/toy stimulation) from “deep vagina”, then “mid vagina”, followed by “introitus” , with not so big differences.
In other words, pleasure was not most closest to the inner clitoris; in fact, closest to the clitoral (vestibular) bulbs is left and right side of the shallow vagina.
It doesn’t seem to me that the G-spot is even that close to the clitoral body, and it looks the G-spot may be slightly too deep for this to fit well. I may be wrong here, and have not studied this as much. I also note in Burri et al. (see Doc), that the majority of women who did not report a G-spot still “reach orgasm through penetrative sex without any other stimulation”.
Thanks for your responses.
[1] Levin RJ. The clitoral activation paradox – Claimed outcomes from different methods of its stimulation. Clin Anat. 2018;31(5):650-660. https://doi.org/10.1002/ca.23192
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Great stuff. Thank you.
I am a bit critical of sex research because it is very difficult to reproduce any results. I mean, in your first comment you noted that 68% of women in the IFOP study orgasmed without clitoral stimulation. In the study I referenced later, you correctly noted it was “The Herbenick study shows that 18+36=54%” – but that is big deviation from 68% – and if women need stimulation of the clitoris during foreplay then it is an integral part of the climatic process.
I am very critical of the Bronsalaer study where women report that pleasure is in the deepest part of the vagina. I personally have talked to many women about this and always their clitoris is the most sensitive and pleasurable part of their genitals. Anatomically speaking, the nerve endings in the clitoris and near the vaginal entrance are by far the most dense. Also, deep penetration has the risk of putting pressure on the cervix and putting the uterosacral ligaments on stretch – which can lead to discomfort or pain.
It is interested you cited a Puppo study. Ironically, Dr. Vincenzo Puppo states that his research shows that vaginal orgasms do not exist. He was quoted as saying, “As a matter of fact, female sexual dysfunctions are popular because they are based on something that does not exist – the vaginal orgasm,”[1]
About the position of the clitoral body and the G-spot, actually yes, they do line up. From the glans, the clitoral body goes up then arches back down before splitting off into the legs – and that is a little over 2 inches back from the glans. The idea of the the clitoral body being the G-spot is catching on – even Healthline described that way in an article.[2]
[1] https://www.firstpost.com/living/theres-thing-vaginal-orgasm-shows-study-1745735.html
[2] https://www.healthline.com/health/g-spot-in-women
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You have put A LOT of research into this? If you’re not a doctor or sexual therapist, why are you so obsessed over this?
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Because anyone who googles this will be bombarded by websites that say most women do not reach orgasms penetration, some also call it rare. This alone would be enough reason to debunk this myth. Some sex education/academia also say that penetration is typically not so pleasurable for women. This is detrimental sex education, and I find an anti vagina/penetration bias. Example Wikipedia says [1], with refs:
“One misconception, particularly in older research publications, is that the vagina is completely insensitive. [40] … intense sexual pleasure (including orgasm) from vaginal stimulation is occasional or otherwise absent because the vagina has significantly fewer nerve endings than the clitoris. [4][43][44] The greatest concentration of vaginal nerve endings are at the lower third (near the entrance) of the vagina.[2][4][45][46]”
So they say the misconception is not that it is insensitive, but that it is completely dead (the whole idea that the vagina is unresponsive to pleasure is based on bad research, see Discussion in my doc). Scarleteen, a website dedicated to sex education says [2]:
““The back two-thirds of the vagina aren’t very sensitive. This is one reason why people with vaginas usually won’t reach orgasm or experience a lot of pleasure from vaginal intercourse alone.””
Here is a third example, written by “a team of Columbia University health promotion specialists, health care providers, and other health professionals” [3] and they say [4]:
“In contrast, the vaginal walls contain relatively few nerve endings. Only the lower third of the vagina has enough nerve endings to feel stimulation from a penis, finger, sex toy, or other penetrative object. This can make intense sexual stimulation, pleasure, and orgasm from vaginal-only penetration unlikely.”
Citing Brody [5] again, he also find sex education detrimental:
“A reversal of the destructive effects of the politically driven and counterfactual ‘‘sex education’’ of the past few decades (which variously has claimed that vaginal orgasm did not exist, or was rare, or was equivalent to or dependent on clitoral orgasm, or was unrelated to psychological features of the woman) is also needed (Brody, 2006b).”
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgasm#Females
[2] https://www.scarleteen.com/article/disability_quickies/quickies_sexual_anatomy
[3] https://goaskalice.columbia.edu/about-alice/all-about
[4] http://web.archive.org/web/20210609012126/https://goaskalice.columbia.edu/answered-questions/ways-woman-orgasm-during-intercourse (original link died, so this is webarchive)
[5] Stuart Brody (2007) Vaginal orgasm is associated with better psychological function, Sexual and Relationship Therapy, 22:2, 173-191. https://doi.org/10.1080/14681990601059669
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